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As yet STILL unanswered questions about the WTC collapse

 

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-07-02, 12:47 PM (ET) As yet STILL unanswered questions about the WTC collapse at least as far as I'm concerned! The war on Iraq is successful I guess. It's deflected attention away from a 911 investigation and has people having to spend their time going out and protesting the war rather than protesting 911! I'm starting this because as someone noted the other was getting huge. Here is about the last thing I added to the last thread. I call this strange. If you look closely you can see the lower part is still standing but instead of being able to see any of the vertical ribs of the building or the corner of the building it looks like they are exploding. I think it looks bizarre. Plaguepuppie added another pic on the old thread that looks weird too. I noticed there's another thread about the strange pools of melted steel in the WTC with seismic events right before they fell. it looks interesting but I havent had time to check it out while I'm sending letters to congress and making phone calls. See this was is being extremely sucessful!

re7141 (2 posts) Oct-07-02, 02:13 PM (ET) 1. As yet STILL unanswered questions about the WTC collapse Fascinating picture. To me, it doesn't appear the vertical ribs are "exploding" but are "shaking" extremely violently causing concrete to turn to dust. Question is what would cause a massive structure to shake like that? Floors pancaking down or something in the basement rattling the columns?

ewing2001 (3251 posts) Oct-07-02, 06:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #2 3. seismic statistics twin towers LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-02 AT 06:09 PM (ET) Yesterday at our desk at the protest in NYC i received the information, that BEFORE the Twin Towers collapsed, the seismic rates jumped to 2.1/2.3. (please bear with me, if this was not paraphrased scientifically correct) I know the guy who runs the Flight93 seismic page, but never heard about irregularities at the Twin Towers as well. My source told me to look at the official website of the Columbia University Earth Institute. Unfortunately i have no time to analyse and even read my search results, but i hope i found and pasted the correct page and you are able to scoop it down on credibility or if it fits the original statement: http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/news/story11_16_01.html Earth Institute News posted 11/16/01 Contact: Danielle Bizzarro For Immediate Release Columbia Earth Institute (212) 854-7893 dbiz@ldeo.columbia.edu Harvey Leifert America Geophysical Union (202) 777-7507 hleifert@agu.org Damage to Buildings Near World Trade Center Towers Caused by Falling Debris and Air Pressure Wave, Not by Ground Shaking, Columbia Seismologists Report in November 20 issue of Eos Researchers Call for Seismographic Stations in Urban Areas On September 11, seismographs operated by Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, recorded seismic signals produced by the impacts of the two aircraft hitting the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center, and the Towers’ subsequent collapse. While the ground shaking was consistent with the energy released by small earthquakes, it was not sufficient to cause the collapse of or damage to the surrounding buildings, as some have thought. Rather, the buildings around the Twin Towers were impacted both by the kinetic energy of falling debris and by the pressure exerted on the buildings by a dust- and particle- laden blast produced by the collapse. Writing in the November 20 issue of Eos, published by the American Geophysical Union, seismologists from Columbia’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory outline the sequence of seismographic recordings on that tragic day, and argue that vibrations recorded on September 11 were of a magnitude thought to be too low to cause structural damage to buildings, especially in the northeast region of the United States. However, the authors add that because there were no seismographic stations in or even near the World Trade Center, it is impossible to know for sure that the ground-shaking did not have any impact on the neighboring buildings. Ultimately, they say, urban officials should consider the importance of placing seismographic stations in high-density urban areas. "Our recordings were made at considerable distance," said Won-Young Kim, who is in charge of seismological network operations for Lamont-Doherty. "However, plans are pending for an Advanced National Seismic System (ANSS) that calls for placing seismic instruments in such urban areas as New York City. The tragic events of September 11 show that such instrumentation can serve a purpose that sometimes transcends strict earthquake applications." Seismic recordings on E-W component at Palisades, NY for events at World Trade Center (WTC) on September 11, distance 34 km. Three hours of continuous data shown starting at 08:40 EDT (12:40 UTC). Two largest signals were generated by collapses of Towers 1 and 2. Expanded views of first impact and first collapse shown in red. Displacement amplitude spectra in nm-s from main impacts and collapses shown at right. Note broadband nature of spectra for collapses 1 and 2, whereas relatively periodicmotions for impacts 1 & 2. The paper was authored by 12 researchers at Lamont, including Kim; Lynn Sykes; Klaus Jacob, Paul Richards and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Lerner-Lam is the director of Columbia’s new Center for Hazards and Risk Research. Lerner-Lam explained what happened once the planes hit the World Trade Center, and how they resulted in relatively small seismographic readings. "The energy contained in the amount of fuel combusted was the equivalent to the energy released by 240 tons of TNT," said Lerner-Lam. "This energy was absorbed by the buildings and produced the observed fireballs, but did not immediately cause the collapse. During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage– but not causing significant ground shaking." Seismographic recordings of the tower collapses were recorded in five states, as far away as 428 kilometers <266 miles> in Lisbon, New Hampshire. Lamont’s home station, in Palisades, New York, is located above the Hudson River, 34 kilometers <21 miles> from downtown Manhattan, where the towers stood. The aircraft impacts registered local magnitude (ML) 0.9 and 0.7, indicating minimal earth shaking as a result. The subsequent collapse of the towers, on the contrary, registered magnitudes of 2.1 and 2.3, comparable to the small earthquake that occurred beneath the east side of Manhattan on January 17, 2001. The Lamont seismographs established the following timeline: 8:46:26 a.m. EDT <1240 UTC> Aircraft impact - north tower, Magnitude 0.9; 9:02:54 a.m. EDT <1302 UTC> Aircraft impact - south tower, Magnitude 0.7; 9:59:04 a.m. EDT <1359 UTC> Collapse - south tower, Magnitude 2.1; 10:28:31 a.m. EDT <1428 UTC> Collapse - north tower, Magnitude 2.3. In addition, the seismic waves were short-period surface waves, meaning they traveled within the upper few kilometers of the Earth’s crust. They were caused by the interaction between the ground and the building foundation, which transmits the energy from the impacts and the collapses. The authors also noted that as seen in television images, the fall of the towers was similar to that of a pyroclastic flow down a volcano, where hot dust and chunks of material move in a dust/mud matrix down the volcano’s slope. The collapse of the WTC generated such a flow, though without the high temperatures common in volcanic flows. The Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory operates 34 seismographic stations in the northeast in collaboration with several institutions. Network operations are supported by the United States Geological Survey. The network is part of the Advanced National Seismic System, a national seismological monitoring initiative being implemented through a USGS-university partnership. The paper by Won-Young Kim, Lynn R. Sykes, J.H. Armitage, J.K. Xie, Klaus H. Jacob, Paul G. Richards, M. West, F. Waldhauser, J. Armbruster, L. Seeber, W.X. Du, and Arthur Lerner-Lam, "Seismic Waves Generated by Aircraft Impacts and Building Collapses at World Trade Center, New York City," appears in Eos, Volume 82, number 47 (20 November 2001), page 565. Journalists may request a copy of the paper from Harvey Leifert, hleifert@agu.org, specifying a pdf or fax version. Please include your name, publication, postal address, phone, fax, and email address. There is no embargo. To speak with any of the researchers listed above, please contact Stacey Gander, Administrative Assistant, at Columbia’s Center for Hazards and Risk Research: (845) 365-8909 or staceyv@ldeo.columbia.edu. Web site for the Lamont-Doherty Cooperative Seismographic Network: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/ The Columbia Earth Institute © GROUND ZERO Forum NYC http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001 http://www.ourdna.org/ http://www.lebensaspekte.de/ 911Skeptics worldwide unite! Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Connecticut, Ohio, Portland etc... Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later! http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm http://www.lihop.net/ Martin Luther King III, Nina Hagen, Spooky, Patti Smith got our files! 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(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution, hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...) Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html 911Skeptics in the media: http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.conspiracy.0912w NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

2muchbs (1189 posts) Oct-08-02, 00:27 AM (ET) Reply to post #3 4. Another strange pic for review, again LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-02 AT 00:30 AM (ET) Yes, its saved in my FTP space, and yes its a touch blurry. If you look around the web you will find it posted, and it appears clearer. I found this smoke and debris jetting from the structure below the collapse mind numbing. But so many others could have cared less. This little bit from above can safely be trashed: "The energy contained in the amount of fuel combusted was the equivalent to the energy released by 240 tons of TNT," said Lerner-Lam." I don't know what planet this guy is on, but his theory is highly misleading. It's not how much energy was released that's of importance, but the rate at which it was released. 240 tons of TNT? Come on give us a break. That comparison is ridiculous. By the way what was the method of containment? The open atmosphere? Must be some of that new jet fuel I have heard so much about. lol. Bill

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 01:54 AM (ET) Reply to post #3 6. Pyroclastic flows "The authors also noted that as seen in television images, the fall of the towers was similar to that of a pyroclastic flow down a volcano, where hot dust and chunks of material move in a dust/mud matrix down the volcano’s slope. The collapse of the WTC generated such a flow, though without the high temperatures common in volcanic flows. " At last, someone else bothers to comment on this! "This huge amount of very fine dust seems to virtually fall in place, much of it within the outlines of the former building. This created a pyroclastic flow, or perhaps more properly a turbidity current: a slurry of dust and air much denser than the air around it, that can accelerate to considerable speeds as it falls." (from http://ontario.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7336&group=webcast) Pyroclastic flows and turbidity currents are well known in geology. Turbidity current is a more general term, usually used to designate the underwater equivalent of pyroclastic flows. These occur when sediment along the edge of a continental shelf slump in a kind of avalanche, creating a "fluid within a fluid" of sediment mixed with water that is denser than the surrounding medium. Anyone who understands the physics of turbidity currents will see why it is so remarkable that such an effect could occur in a building collapse. For this flow to have formed, and formed as soon as it did, the building materials had to be pulverized and energetically mixed with air from very early on in the collapse, virtually from the moment of onset. There can be no question that a very large energy input is needed to reduce an intact building to a slurry of dust and debris. And until it has had time to accelerate the weight of the building cannot supply that kind of energy. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 01:26 AM (ET) 5. Some points on photo analysis This is indeed an interesting picture that illustrates several of the anomalies that can be seen in the twin tower collapses. However the vertical striations you see are not actually the outer columns being vibrated or exploding, but something just as strange, and something that is visible in many other photos and videos. The vertical stripes are arising from the object at the bottom right of the photo, the diagonal element with a darker area under it. This is a large steel panel that appears to be a portion of the outer wall that has remained bolted together and is falling as a unit. As it falls (this can be seen much more clearly in the videos) it leaves behind a thick trail of dust which creates the appearance of vertical columns. What is strangest about this is that the steel itself appears to be disintegrating as it falls, turning into metal dust in much the same way as the "spire" that is left after WTC-1 fell (see my web page for more on the spire). There are several video clips, and stills like the above, that show large chunks of the outer wall falling - though actually remarkably few of these large pieces can be seen falling as opposed to the very uniform slurry of fine dust and small pieces of steel that makes up most of the collapse. But where these large pieces can be seen they are trailing thick clouds of dust behind them. Needless to say there is no way that dust from other construction materials, say gypsum or concrete, could be pouring off these objects so long after they start to fall. And on closer exam of the videos there is an unmistakeable attenuation and softening of these pieces as they fall, suggesting that it is indeed the steel itself that is giving rise to the dust trails. Here is a video of the WTC-1 collapse that shows this same "softening" process in steel that is still standing: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/close-up_north_tower.mpg (2.8MB file) Notice how, after the top of the building has dropped out of the frame, the vertical structure a little right of the middle of the frame (which appears to be a piece of the outer wall to the right of the corner of the building facing us) quickly begins to droop and curl over, at the same time that it gives off thick clouds of dust. I'll try to find some good clips to show free-falling pieces doing a similar disappearing act - I have to do a little searching to find a good clip that isn't too long. One other interesting feature of the picture is the large number of short pieces of steel columns, about one floor in height, that can be seen along the leading edge of the dust cloud. These pieces can be seen in a number of pictures, and seem to be ejected at high speed just ahead of the main dust/debris cloud. This picture shows more of these "chopped-off" pieces of steel, and a large chung trailing thick dust. Lots more interesting stills at http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?categoryID=4 The obvious question is how these pieces of steel were broken off so uniformly and thrown out so energetically. The same issue that applies to the creation of so much fine dust applies here: what is the energy source, and what is the mechanism? No account of this is even attempted in the "official" explanation of the collapses. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-08-02, 02:41 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 7. If something was exploded in the sub basement that took out the whole support columns wouldnt necessarily do it either. I remember reading of some guys theory that the towers were designed and built to collapse on demand. As crazy as it sounds that seems like the only thing that would explain it to me. They are talking pyroclastics. Virtually, the only time that occurs is from volcanic activity, the most awesome power on earth. I don't see the trade tower collapse as that cataclysmic of an occurance

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 04:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #7 8. If something was exploded LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-02 AT 04:38 PM (ET) LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-02 AT 04:32 PM (ET) If you look at the seismic tracings of the collapse (the original, not the blow-up) you'll see that there is a very energetic spike very close to the onset of shaking in each collapse. In fact they go "off scale" and cross over the other tracings on the page: These very large spikes are clipped off on the enlarged tracings, but are clearly the most energetic part of the events and take place in about the first second of the ~10 sec. of waves seen in the blow-ups. This means that the strongest ground shaking, and so the highest energy release to ground, happens very close to the onset of the collapse. If the collapse begins because of failure of trusses, floor pans, etc. there should be very little seismic energy being transmitted to the ground in the early stages of the collapse. Instead we would expect the greatest energy at the end of the 10 seconds when the wreckage hits the ground. Some sort of cutting charges at the bottoms of the 47 core columns would definitely create a big seismic impulse, being closely coupled to the bedrock. By comparison nothing happening high up in the towers could have transmitted such a big impulse to the ground - the tower itself would have attenuated too much of it. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-08-02, 05:25 PM (ET) Reply to post #8 9. There would have to be other charges throughout the building tho it seems. It's weird, you look at these pics of the tower and all you can see is a column of concrete dust and regular length pieces of steel flying out of the column like an eruption. Wouldnt the pieces of steel be of different lenghts? Could the floors collapsing break the steel beams in half and hurl them out like that? I sure got no idea! It looks to me like the whole building just disintegrated instead of collapse. Could looking at the original blueprints for the building show it was built to be demolished easily if need be?

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 11:20 PM (ET) Reply to post #9 10. How the perimeter columns were assembled The 14" square box columns came in pre-assembled units 3 floors long, so it is indeed strange that they broke into so many ~1 floor long pieces. The 3 floor by 3 column assemblies were staggered so that the end connections did not line up with the ones on either side. You can see this jagged 3 column step effect on the edges of some of the bigger pieces. In spite of all this overlapping and reinforcement, very little of the outer walls seems to have fallen in interconnected chunks like the pictures above. Instead the columns seem to have chopped themselves into nice clean 1 floor pieces. From chapter 2 of the FEMA report: "The buildings’ signature architectural design feature was the vertical fenestration, the predominant element of which was a series of closely spaced built-up box columns. At typical floors, a total of 59 of these perimeter columns were present along each of the flat faces of the building. These columns were built up by welding four plates together to form an approximately 14-inch square section, spaced at 3 feet 4 inches on center. Adjacent perimeter columns were interconnected at each floor level by deep spandrel plates, typically 52 inches in depth. In alternate stories, an additional column was present at the center of each of the chamfered building corners. The resulting configuration of closely spaced columns and deep spandrels created a perforated steel bearing-wall frame system that extended continuously around the building perimeter. ... Construction of the perimeter-wall frame made extensive use of modular shop prefabrication. In general, each exterior wall module consisted of three columns, three stories tall, interconnected by the spandrel plates, using all-welded construction. Cap plates were provided at the tops and bottoms of each column, to permit bolted connection to the modules above and below. Access holes were provided at the inside face of the columns for attaching high-strength bolted connections. Connection strength varied throughout the building, ranging from four bolts at upper stories to six bolts at lower stories. Near the building base, supplemental welds were also utilized. Side joints of adjacent modules consisted of high-strength bolted shear connections between the spandrels at mid-span. Except at the base of the structures and at mechanical floors, horizontal splices between modules were staggered in elevation so that not more than one third of the units were spliced in any one story. Where the units were all spliced at a common level, supplemental welds were used to improve the strength of these connections. Figure 2-3 illustrates the construction of typical modules and their interconnection. At the building base, adjacent sets of three columns tapered to form a single massive column, in a fork-like formation, shown in Figure 2-4." Notice the great lengths the designers went to to prevent the kind of breaking off at each floor that seems to have happened so easily in the collapses. And notice too how strong the connections between adjacent columns were: 52" tall steel plates welded between adjacent columns at each floor. Yet most of the outer columns broke off into little pieces not connected to anything else What immense force could break all those welds and bolts, chop up the columns, and send the pieces flying? It certainly wasn't gravity, which unfortunately leaves explosives (whole shitloads of them, distributed widely through the structures) and/or some kind of unconventional energy weapon. Being a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, I personally suspect both. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-11-02, 07:01 PM (ET) Reply to post #10 30. One comment I had on the info in this post I've never done construction welding, I'm more of a fabricator. In general, each exterior wall module consisted of three columns, three stories tall, interconnected by the spandrel plates, using all-welded construction. Cap plates were provided at the tops and bottoms of each column, to permit bolted connection to the modules above and below. I have fabricated parts to do more 5th wheels, trailer hitches and snow plows than I care to think about and, even tho I'm an excellent welder, I would never just leave it at a weld. Safety requires that you drill and bolt the piece together and then weld it so that there is a back up if the weld should ever break. I can't hardly believe that they would have all-welded construction with no safety bolts. They used safety bolts at other joints it specifies in the snip above. Little things like these make me wonder if they weren't constructed to do what they did on 911.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-09-02, 02:03 AM (ET) Reply to post #9 11. Another pyroclastic slurry One big chunk visible on lower left, shedding big dust trails. Also some debris on upper right that seems to be flying up! Clearly a very energetic event, lots of finely pulverized stuff being blown out to the sides. And note the glow on the upper left - this is not a trick of the light and shows up in numerous pics and videos. Here's a video clip (11.4MB mpeg but worth the d/l) that shows the very bright and persistent glow that develops as WTC-1 hits the ground: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/tower_2_afterglow.mpg "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-09-02, 11:05 AM (ET) Reply to post #11 12. Watched that video saw the light, that is weird and I noticed something else you may or may not have noticed. After the building is completely down, you can still see a very tall sliver of the building standing along what would be your right as you watch it. It stands there for quite sometime and then jsut seems to DISINTEGRATE INTO DUST. There is no way the tower collapsing causes this because the tower is already down! Check it out, something is very, very wrong with that. It doesn't fall or anything, it jsut plain disintegrates into duist as it's standing there. I actually downloaded the clip and played it on media player   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-09-02, 12:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #12 14. That is the so-called "spire"... It was pointed out in the previous thread by plaquepuppy. Here is his link... http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html   Remove | Alert

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-09-02, 12:46 PM (ET) Reply to post #14 15. OK couldn't imagine that everyone in this bunch had missed that up till now! The thing is, nothing in the world that I know of would make something come apart and fall straight down like that. It's a hard enough stretch believing the towers themselves did it, what we're seeing in that spire is impossible by everything that I know of. It looks like sci-fi, like a disintegration beam being used.

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-09-02, 01:12 PM (ET) Reply to post #15 16. The video is not clear enough... to establish for sure, for me anyway, that the spire turns to dust. Those who say otherwise claim that the spire became laden with dust as the rest of the tower fell. Then as the spire fell, the dust comes off and obscures the actual fall of the spire itself.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-09-02, 01:59 PM (ET) Reply to post #16 17. OK, I can even go along with that, but why did it fall straight down, like the towers did? Instead of falling over like a tree or buckling and falling over. It falls straight down. Just very, very weird. Best evidnce I've seen yet IMO.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Endimion (48 posts) Oct-09-02, 03:29 PM (ET) Reply to post #17 18. Could someone give me an explanation what is wrong with this picture? Here we see pretty big piece of outer support lying sticked in ground, but WHAT kind of support? It is a part of outer support that was situated immediately above lobby of each tower. Check some pictures of ground lobby before 9/11. I think the "gap" between floors is in fact 4th floor. But how could 4th floor piece of outer support suddenly "jump" over WTC3 ? WTC3 is being destroyed partially only by ~8th floor. Suggests, comments? Evil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-09-02, 04:05 PM (ET) Reply to post #16 19. About the dust There are pictures of this thing just after the dust cloud has settled that show it to be squeaky-clean of any dust: http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-230496.html Or here perhaps starting to shed some dust from the lower end of the part visible: http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-image.html--graphic.html And here just after it has turned to dust: http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-230497.html This is way more dust than could have been sitting on the surface of the columns, and even if there had been some it would have fallen at about the same rate as the steel. But there's no question of what the video shows, even if it isn't perfectly sharp: this very tall object falls straight down, and soon after starting to fall(~1/3 of the way down)the sharp outline of the steel columns disappears, leaving a narrow vertical pillar of dust that falls at a slower rate, but still almost vertically. I didn't notice this the first few times I watched this clip - the glow was what really impressed me. But as I was getting ready to send it to someone this funny spire thing caught my eye. To me the glow is as puzzling as this disintegration business, and probably a manifestation of the same thing. You can see how the camera stops down, showing that it is indeed much brighter. The brightness is localized to the left side of the image, and the right side gets derker as the camera stops down. This is simply not a camera artifact or reflection of the sun off white dust, it's much too bright for that. There's a similar glow after the collapse of the first building, that seems to last right up to the second collapse: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/bright_afterglow_of_south_tower_collapse_.avi All I can offer is that it obviously takes a large energy input to turn steel to dust, and that same energy source is probably responsible for the glow. I'm not an insider, so I have no idea what this might be, but the Tesla energy weapon yarns that Tom Bearden spins have a ring of truth. He describes scalar wave weapons, based on an expanded version of Maxwell's equations, that allow energy to be pumped from a remote site without being dissipated in the space in between. It involves two scalar waves (this is the Tesla part- conventional electromagnetics does not include this)that can carry a lot of energy, but don't interact with matter. But where the two beams intersect, energy seems to appear out of nowhere as interferance of the two scalar waves causes conversion into conventional electromagnetic radiation. Here's a link to Bearden's web site: http://www.cheniere.org/books/analysis/index.html "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-09-02, 04:25 PM (ET) Reply to post #19 20. If steel was being turned to dust somehow... wouldn't there be samples of outer wall elements that were partially "decomposed". Other photos I have seen of steel at the scrapyard all looked normal to me - normal in the sense that it wasn't corroded or partially decomposed.

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-09-02, 11:56 AM (ET) Reply to post #11 13. The more I know, the less I understand LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-02 AT 11:59 AM (ET) OK, I will admit it. I am not a rocket scientist. I have a fairly decent background in hard science but I cannot claim to even be related to a physicist. All the same, I can chew gum and walk at the same time. I know that the tomato is a fruit, despite the protestations of the US Supreme Court and the Reagan administration who insist that it be treated as a vegetable. I can correctly pronounce the word nuclear. That ought to count for something. So there I am, looking at the seismic waves of 9:11 and I do not know what to say. Therefore, I search for some simliar event. I myself cannot explain the behaviour of the Boeing at the Pentagon. Has anything like this ever happened before? Andrei Olkhovatov, a Russian scientist who supports many of his findings, says that a meteor 200ft across would have left at least 100,000 tonnes of debris along its approach path. “But the question arises, where are the remnants?” he asked. “Nowhere, nothing after decades of detailed research.” http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ntungusk.htm Hmmm. But what does this have to with the WTC? We had LOTS of debris in New York. Our problem here is that we cannot explain it. There were no appreciable seismic waves in Washington, but they abound in New York. All this on the same day and from the same group of people! So I start to look around. http://www.seismo.com/msop/nmsop/03%20source/source1/source1.html Off I go, looking for another instance in which there was an impact followed a considerable while later by a cloud of dust. Preferably one in which puzzled knowledegable people stated and then retracted their intial impressions regarding the formation of a cloud of dust forming a considerable time after an impact. http://www.scienceweb.org/can/news/dec97/n121997a.htm I try to find another event which has baffled many scientists of many different disciplines. http://omzg.comcen-1.nsk.su/tunguska/en/newse/abstracts/volkov.htm http://olkhov.narod.ru/tunguska.htm#35 But then I find that I am on the wrong track since this mystery was declared solved days after our own event occured. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1628806.stm And then, as things fall, I find that I really must put on my tinfoil hard hat. Meteorite crashes near mourning Jordanian village April 24, 2001 AMMAN (AFP) - Residents of a Jordanian village attending a funeral got an unwelcome surprise when a fiery meteorite crashed down in their midst, one of them told AFP Monday. "More than 100 of us were gathered Wednesday at sundown to bury a village resident when we saw a strange object that looked like a ball of fire," said Mohammed Nawaf Mikdadi, mayor of Beit Eidess, some 85 kilometers north of Amman. "The meteor shot through the sky from west to east before a part of it came down a half kilometer (quarter mile) from the village, sparking an explosion and then a fire with four-meter flames for 10 meters straight," Mikdadi told AFP. "The villagers thought it was a missile, but when we went to the spot there weren't any metal scraps," he said. The mayor expressed relief the meteorite fell on a rocky area near Beit Eidess and not in a nearby forest, which could have spelled disaster for the village. After I have read the above-given AFP report, I posted in METEOROBS emailing list that the event more resembles a geophysical event, than a meteoritic one, but the description is very brief for any solid conclusion. And soon confirmation of the geophysical interpretation appeared! Here it is in JAS www-site. Geophysical data reveals several interesting features. First, weak shallow earthquakes occur from time-to-time in the area of the event, pointing on increased level of tectonic activity in there. Especially on April 25 an earthquake took place not far from the impact place. Below are results of search for similar or stronger earthquakes through catalog of the Seismology Division of the Geophysical Institute of Israel in the area +-0.4 degrees around the impact site for the last decade. The results speak for themself. <snip> I am searching for more detailed geophysical data on the event. Also it would be very interesting to know, did the fireball deposit any substance? On May 10, 2002, I got e-mail from Dr. Claude Perron (Museum National d'Histoire Naturelle, Laboratoire de Mineralogie, Paris, France), who analysed the event soil samples. He wrote that the samples seem to be combustion residues (carbon) and ashes (calcium and potassium carbonate), together with local stones. What caused the fire, he has no idea. but he added that it is certainly not a meteorite. MORE But many other witnesses and people, who saw video of the lights reject the airplane explanation. Moreover appeared-later data makes the airplane explanation rather unlikely. Here is from www.nidsci.org/news/newjersey_contents.html : Data from Newark International Airport on July 15 indicates Multiple Objects Without Transponders Detected. On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice tapes for the same time period from Newark International Airport. Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary analytical report that details unidentified flying objects without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below. The following points are to be noted: All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to get Carteret time for each data point. Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts). EWR refers to Newark International Airport. NONE of the objects in the table below had transponders. By far the most noteworthy aspect of this communication is the large number of objects detected that DO NOT have transponders (all commercial aircraft have transponders) in the airspace around Newark International at the same time that an estimated seventy eyewitnesses on the New Jersey Turnpike and a further fifty (estimated) witnesses from Staten Island reported unidentified lights in the same area of sky. A request to randomly check for aircraft without transponders at the same time on a DIFFERENT night produced the result that there were no objects without transponders in the air around Newark International airport on that second, randomly chosen, night. This "control" study lends support to the notion that such a large profusion of objects without transponders in the air around one of the busiest international airports in the world is unusual. Secondly, the fact that multiple objects without transponders were in the same airspace while over one hundred eyewitnesses on the ground were watching several unidentified objects over Carteret may be of interest. http://olkhov.narod.ru/gr1997.htm#30 And then I am right back where I started. The more I know, the less I understand.

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-10-02, 07:45 PM (ET) Reply to post #13 21. Man in moon meets the WTC There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese. <snip> A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes. http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-10-02, 09:32 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 22. I'm not a scientist but I have been a machinist and welder for years and that is the first I have ever heard of such a thing and I have never seen anything like that. Acid rain, huh? Does he give any idea of how rain got into the construction of the WTC to coat the steel with this sulpher? I would think they would have noticed the roof leaking a little bit over the years!

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-11-02, 08:31 AM (ET) Reply to post #22 23. Acid rain from hell? The motherfucking smoking gun is in the house! "A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness." If anyone can explain this *without* black technology I'll be real interested to hear it. As to Ramblin_Dave's question about why it doesn't seem to affect all the steel equally, I suspect it has to do with resonance effects between the energy source and the structure. From what I know about conventional electromagnetics, there could easily be effects related to the size of pieces and the wavelength of the energy source that could spare smaller pieces but dump a lot of energy into larger pieces. This could account for the many small (~1 floor) pieces of columns that seemed to fall intact while the big chunks of the outer wall trailed thick dust clouds. The size of the pieces could also be a factor - we see pictures of the big 1'x3' box columns from the core that look unaffected. Maybe this is because they are big enough to act as a current path to ground without "burning out". Conversely, the "spire" was very thin and nothing else was standing around it to divert the energy flow, and we saw it turn very abruptly to dust. One other thought about scalar weapons - in one of Bearden's pieces (http://www.cheniere.org/books/analysis/index.html) he mentions a "metal softening mode" that the Russian Tesla weapons could employ: "On Jan. 1, 1986, a startled Frank Golden detected —and physically verified with a special technique— that a metal softening scalar EM signal had been added onto the Soviet Woodpecker signals. Thus, at that time the Soviet Union was preparing to exercise a metal softening test at some future time, in some location over the U.S.** ** Note this signal could also have been present for the Dec. 12 destruction of the Arrow DC-8 at Gander AFB, Newfoundland." More scalar weapons links at http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-showresources.html-TopRes-Tesla-2C-20scalar-20devices-20and-209-2F11.html "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-11-02, 12:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #23 24. The latest from Tom Bearden - scalar EM weapons in Iraq? http://www.rense.com/general30/mager.htm "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-11-02, 02:54 PM (ET) Reply to post #25 26. Doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg* True! Of course it is! <...> I have given you the story just as Mother told it to me, years ago. Why, there is not a child in Holland who does not know it. And <...> you may not think so, but that little boy represents the spirit of the whole country. Not a leak can show itself anywhere either in its politics, honor, or public safety, that a million fingers are not ready to stop it, at any cost. http://home.planet.nl/~meder/map12/hansbrinker.html *The fall of Tidde Winnenga (scroll down) People, we have our own personal cadre of heroic Hans Brinkersmen. Not a leak can show itself anywhere that certain fingers are not ready to stop it, at any cost.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-12-02, 09:18 AM (ET) Reply to post #32 36. Dragging dust - not so stunning "Here's another not so stunning piece of reasoning." Well at least your self image is getting more realistic. "...the sections fell through the dust plume. The mass and shape of the section at a higher speed have dragged some dust with the section as it falls." And pigs might look like ravens, if they had wings and feathers. Here are some better views of large chunks of the outer wall shedding dense trails of dust: (Thanks to Edminion for pictures) A dense object moving through a cloud of dust would actually leave a trail with *less* dust than the surrounding space. Here we see objects falling through dust-free space and leaving thick trails of dust behind, dust that obviously represents much more material than could be "dragged along". A glance at these pictures shows that there is much more going on than dust swirling in the trail of a moving object. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

LARED (449 posts) Oct-12-02, 09:59 AM (ET) Reply to post #36 38. Let me ask you a serious question Do you actually believe those photos are evidence of the steel vaporizing? Really? I mean there are at least two very simple explainations for the trails of dust. The section of facade dragged some dust with them as they fell though the dust and/or the dust was pushed between the structure elements/ columns during the collaspe and is falling out as the steel falls. Two quite reasonable explainations for what is observed. Why not examine those possibilities rather than getting worked up into a lather about "a smoking gun is in the house." It ain't even a squirt pistol.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-12-02, 11:00 AM (ET) Reply to post #38 42. two (simply wrong) explainations Dragging or pushing dust - can you show me an example anywhere else of this "pushing/dragging" of dust outside the whimsical precincts of "New York freestyle" laws of physics? The pictures above do not show dust being pushed, or dust somehow mysteriously being "dragged" along. Think of a car driving through fog: it does not push fog ahead of it, and the fog in its wake will swirl and eddy, not issue in a thick sheet from the back of the car. Is it metal dust? Well all I can say is that it is clearly coming *from* the falling objects, not being passively dragged along. Is it dust, smoke, vapor of some kind? The sections of outer wall are mostly metal, and I do not see any other source for the thick clouds of opaque material issuing from them. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

LARED (449 posts) Oct-12-02, 09:20 PM (ET) Reply to post #51 65. I can't address how it turns to dust because that didn't happen. You'll need to ask Plaguepup that one. He has a theory I think. My best guess as to why to falls straight down rather that tips over is that universal thingy called gravity. I can't tell for sure looking at the videos, but based on the bit of column design I have been exposed to, I would say the bottom of the structure buckled from its own weight allowing the top section to fall straight down. Another possibility is that the debris pile took out the bottom sections once the pile got big enough. Sort of like quickly kicking out the bottom block in a stack of blocks. IMO, the fact it fell nearly straight down is hardly worth a comment The only thing I find amazing about the spire is that it managed to remain standing for a few moments. It had to be at least 600 or 700 hundred feet tall.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-13-02, 10:06 AM (ET) Reply to post #65 72. Hmm, I have fallen many times and yes gravity is the cause of it, but I usually tip over, not collapse stright down into the ground, even if my knees buckled that wouldn't happen. Besides you can plainly see with your own eyes that there is no buckling, the material seems to disolve and then DROP straight down. Make a stack of blocks and kick the bottom out from it, they fall straight down do they? Your idea is flat out BS. I would have felt better if you had just fell back on optical illusion than trying to say that. I must call those demolition companies and tell them to quit using explosives. Obviously, all they have to do is start a fire in the top part of the building and it will come down the same way. Even the bits that don't fall down intially just need a nice bump and they will fall straight down too!

LARED (449 posts) Oct-13-02, 10:56 AM (ET) Reply to post #72 74. re: Besides you can plainly see with your own eyes that there is no buckling, the material seems to disolve and then DROP straight down You must have x-ray vision as at least the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 of the spire is not observable. You have not way of knowing if there was buckling or not. I made a reasoned assumumption that it buckled. Rather than indulge in wild speculation. It should be noted that the spire does not exactly fall straight down. It seems to sway or start to tip over and then falls straight down. Like the bottom supports were removed. Also the spire seems to disolve only after it starts to drop. After dust or debris on the spire obscure the view. That terminal velocity thing again.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-13-02, 12:16 PM (ET) Reply to post #74 75. Yeah, I know, you think everything happened LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-02 AT 12:17 PM (ET) according to the "official" version, what ever that is. You are the only one that has seen it if there is an official verison. All I have seen is people "suppositioning" like we are doing on this thread. You have made your objective clear in your 400+ posting in only the 911 folder. Hmmmmm. Why are you so concerned with showing us the error of our ways again? Oh, yeah! Because we are so embarrassing to "Democrats" like yourself IMHO if you want to do something to save Democrats from being embarrassed, why don't you fight them doing shit like passing $1.2 trillion tax cuts for big business and starting wars with countries that have never done anything to us, IMO you can't get much more embarrassing than that for Democrats like me. Thanks for being so concerned about us Lared, but I think we can take care of ourselves, and nothing you have shown me on any thread comes even close to makiing me think 911 happened as the "official verdict" would have us believe. I won't even bother trying to address what you posted. Since you never answer any specific questions of your "theories" anyway, why should I?

LARED (449 posts) Oct-13-02, 01:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #75 76. Dragging out the "Offical Version" again There is no offical version as far as I know. I post what I believe are reasonable explainations based on known science. Let me state again that while there are a few unexplained elements in WTC 1,2 and 7 collapses, the majority of "evidence" cited in these parts is in the realm of foolishness. The notion that a 600 to 700 foot spire just vaporized in mere moments is in fact, foolishness. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. You really need to check your facts regarding my posting habits. It's kinda scary you care. Are you a latent stalker? While most of my posts have been in the 911 forum, I have ventured to other areas. Why is that an issue in your mind? Is there some qualifications to being a DU poster that requires I post in a variety of forums? Is there some equation I need to follow? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. As for me trying to save Democrats from themselves regarding the nonsense expoused here, Get a grip. I post here because I like it. I learned a long time ago I could provide rock solid evidence proving my position and the hard core conspiracy advocate will find some silly rational to ignore it. Look at the Pentagon thread. Amazingly some still are looking for the Boeing even with the overwhelming photographic evidence that proves, yes proves, without doubt the "offical story". LOL. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Also, if you have noticed not to many Democrats that believe the evil Bush cabel is directly responsible for the attacks on the WTC and pentagon, and far fewer believe the government or any other entity collapsed the WTC using explosives or covert technology. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So tell me how are YOU fighting to save Democrats from themselves. Lately thay can't seem to get anything right. You're service is needed, so put down your smokes and get busy sorting out the world according to you.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-13-02, 05:34 PM (ET) Reply to post #76 85. All sound and fury signifying NOTHING The "you are embarrassing Democrats" is your own words from another thread. Yeah, I do think it suspicious that about the only place someone posts on DU is here to tell us all how silly we all are. I don't base my beliefs on how many other people believe it. Rather than making you an intellectual giant, I would think doing that makes you a LEMMING. I'd need you to refresh me on when you have EVER thought anything but the "official version" was what happened that day. Even the most mundane discrepencies pointed out where called "crazy" and other names by you. I'm done trying to save the Democrats, you can't save someone that WANTS to commit suicide. Yes, the SPIRE DIDN"T happen, tho you can plainly see it with your own eyes. What you CAN'T see however is the "buckling" that you say is shown. This will be my last reply to any post you ever make. Don't reply to mine either please, because I am not addressing them to you, believe me. I hate the idea of having to put someone on my ignore list. It's never been used yet on DU, but I'm afraid it will have to be for you, because I consider you at best to be a troll(look up the definition of that Mr Weblink) or worse.

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-13-02, 02:48 PM (ET) Reply to post #51 77. Veni vidi dusty LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-02 AT 03:03 PM (ET) Well, you do all know about the Manhattan ailment "dementia americana" described by attorney Delphin Delmas. Laws (including those of physics) are sometimes applied rather differently in Manhattan. http://www.amiannoyingornot.com/view.asp?ID=5032 We have an expert witness here people, just like they did at that trial. You naughty jurors are supposed to follow through with ONLY what you have been permitted to consider. If you don't, why, the judge will just have to set aside your verdict.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-13-02, 04:14 PM (ET) Reply to post #77 80. dementia americana Hey, this could explain a lot! Maybe inanimate objects can get "DA" too and violate the laws of physics but of course without any evil intent. Besides, the inanimate objects of the WTC have been punished enough... Not sure that it's worth the effort to respond to LAR_LAR's silly comments above, except to note that tall skinny objects do commonly topple over, regardless of what's happening at ground level (unless there happens to be exlposive demolition down there). And this "spire" is extremely tall and thin. No kind of buckling or getting nudged by the debris near the bottom could induce it to do anything other than topple over. Not that it matters at this point, but I am finally convinced thet LAR_LAR is simply lying about being an engineer. After getting in a silly argument about the meaning of "terminal velocity" he continues to misuse the term: "Also the spire seems to disolve only after it starts to drop. After dust or debris on the spire obscure the view. That terminal velocity thing again." "that terminal velocity thing" indeed... where is this massive amount of dust hiding in the still pictures of the bare metal of the spire? After standing in the middle of the high-velocity pyroclastic flows of the collapse, how could all this dust (enough supposedly to completely hide the steel columns) remain "on" or somehow attached to the mostly vertical surfaces of the spire? And why, just as it starts to drop does all this dust suddenly jump off and form a thick cloud? Those of you who have actually looked at the video can see that initially the outline of the steel columns is clearly visible as it starts to fall, then very suddenly vanishes, leaving only the dust cloud. Did the dust suddenly become denser in a few milliseconds? The mystery of why and how an extremely tall skinny object made of steel box columns can do anything *but* topple over is a great one indeed, second only to the mystery of how in managed to remain standing through the violent and turbulent pyroclastic flows of the collapse and for a few seconds after. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-12-02, 09:36 AM (ET) Reply to post #32 37. I don't think you know how to reason Here's another not so stunning piece of reasoning. The sections of the WTC facade that appear to be vaporizing as they fall are merely falling at a faster rate than the dust. I thought someone proved back in the middle ages that all objects fall at the same rate regardless of their mass?

LARED (449 posts) Oct-12-02, 10:09 AM (ET) Reply to post #37 39. He did. And then someone sometime after that worked out the mechanics of terminal velocity. Here's a fun link that graphically shows it. Watch the red line. http://www.explorescience.com/activities/Activity_page.cfm?ActivityID=27

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-12-02, 10:23 AM (ET) Reply to post #39 40. Again, you're trying to make lemonaide out of oranges LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-02 AT 10:32 AM (ET) Terminal velocity doesnt mean that somethings fall faster than others. Terminal velocity means that objects fall at an increasing faster rate until they reach max speed, ie terminal velocity. But then, you already knew that, didn't you? Edit: Also, you could have jumped off the top of the WTC and still not hit terminal velocity before you hit the ground, so it doubly doesn't apply at all here. Maybe if the dust and debris had jumped out of an airplane it would apply, but all the debris would still fall at the same rate.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-12-02, 11:08 AM (ET) Reply to post #41 43. Actually objects fall at a decreasing rate(!) I've never seen such an incoherent description of terminal velocity from someone claiming to have scientific training. No, objects do not fall at a decreasing rate (and then stop in midair?), they accelerate until the drag force from the medium they are falling through equals their weight, then continue to fall at that speed. All objects fall at the same speed in a vacuum, but in a viscous medium they have a drag force related to their shape and cross sectional area and to their velocity in the medium, so denser and more compact objects will reach a higher terminal velocity. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

LARED (449 posts) Oct-12-02, 12:21 PM (ET) Reply to post #43 44. I was trying to use MSTM's terms I understood his term of decreasing rate to equal acceleration. An object falling through a medium will start to decrease its acceleration immediately. The decreasing rate (deceleration) will reach zero at most time. The time it takes to get there is dependent on all sort of variables, like its shape, what medium it is passing through, is it rotating...etc. After a certian amount of thime the object is now at it's terminal velocity. Acceleration = 0 Seeing as you obviously understand the dynamics here, would you say it is reasonable to believe the steel facade pieces fell through the dust cloud because dust will reach terminal velocity nearly instantanously, while the steel needs quite a bit more distance and time to get there?

2muchbs (1189 posts) Oct-12-02, 12:35 PM (ET) Reply to post #43 46. Exactly Once again Jeff is correct and lared is all smoke and mirrors. Thanks Jeff. Simple and factual. Lared how could you forget about the great fluid we live in and its viscosity? lol! Perhaps this is another area we should test to disprove. Lets simply drop a beam or group of beams, surrounded by smoke, concrete dust etc and watch how quickly they seperate. Or Maybe we could drop a section of the same materials that made up the WTC towers from 50,000 feet and watch as it falls to earth without disintegrating into a fine powder. I say we just test this stuff while videotaping and shut up the BS. Also want to point out that much of the material in the pics posted above has not been crushed with relation to its vertical position in the building. Not what I would expect. Bill PS: Lared, where can I get some of that super diesel fuel you have been raving about. Sounds so much better than the diesel fuel I have experience with. A diesel fuel that can burn without oxygen? I have to get me some of that. Thanks for teaching me all about fuels. I wouldnt know what to do without your insightful but 180 degrees out scientific approach.

2muchbs (1189 posts) Oct-12-02, 05:17 PM (ET) Reply to post #47 59. Hero worship? I agree with a post that fits real science, and that is Hero worship? Perhaps you nailed it, and Jeff is a Hero for honestly reporting about scientific happenings. I don't agree with just about anything you write. If I did I would let you know. That's not my fault, its yours for spewing so much nonsense. Jeff nailed it in a few words. So I support what he said. How is that wrong? You on the other hand seem to be learning as you go. You backtrack so heavily you probably get whiplash. Where do you get the grasping with straws shit? Is this just your attempt at slander? I could "almost" care less anymore about the structures being demolished. That's your problem now. I am simply sharing my thoughts as shaped through many years of experience. It appears that you are the one who is grasping at straws. I personally think you have little engineering experience and zero real world materials experience. You have proved that many times. That's some dust supply stemming from those columns. Amazing how much pressure drop occurred behind them. Must be some more of that "new" physics stuff out of New York. A seemingly never ending supply of dust and smoke. Now that's weird science. Bill

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-11-02, 06:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #23 29. Those are very informative links LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-02 AT 06:46 PM (ET) A person would like to think that nukes are as bad as it gets, but if these weapons do exist (and I think they do for a couple of reasons) then they are more deadly than nukes even. pretty scary! I have read alot about planes laying down chemical trails and most think it has something to do with weather control. One of the metals they lay down is aluminum and there is talk that the big radar system way up north (HARPS I believe its called)is also one of these scalar weapons, they say when that is cranked up and the aluminum particles are in the air that it could basically turn our atmosphere into a giant microwave oven. It would not surpirse me a bit to find out this was the case. The other thing I think could be some indication that these Tesla weapons are a reality is; I worked on our ICBMs for years and anytime a Soviet satellite went over we had to close the site up completly until it was out of range. It was a REAL pain in the ass, since it took nearly an hour to penetrate and back out of the site. It would make sense if there was some way the Russians could collect intelligence, but when you think about it, that is not likely. They know the exact location of the site already and what knowledge could they get by looking at a picture of a missile in a launch tube? Especially since we had the Head of the whole Soviet space command come and tour our base and trainer site while I was in Grand Forks, ND. I'm sure that would expose more secret info than a satellite going over. After reading the links and reading that these weapons will cause nukes to go off on their own, makes me wonder if the USAF wasn't afraid they could cause some type of nuclear accident if the launcher was open. When the site is buttoned up, it is completely protected from EMP by gigantic surge protectors. It seems like that would protect it from the other effects the Tesla weapons as well. Edit:Here is a few lines from the last article linked that basically say the same thing as I did, I hadn't looked at the last link until now. Using the exothermic mode it is possible to make any airplane drop from the sky, anywhere. It is possible to destroy any missile, in its flight path or in its silo. Bearden sites many instances of downed planes he believes were tests of the scalar weapons. (Gandor, Newfoundland)

LARED (449 posts) Oct-13-02, 09:45 AM (ET) Reply to post #21 71. eutectic reactions occur at a reduced temperature. eutectic; A mixture of substances having a minimum melting point. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html The question that needs an answer is where did the sulfur come from in WTC7.

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-12-02, 02:40 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 48. Trailing dust What is known of the outer wall construction beyond the steel sections that formed the outer columns? I would guess that the interior walls were drywall. But what about insulation, could it have been some kind of blown in or poured product? Watching some of the collapse videos it does seem more like something is eroding from the falling wall sections rather anything being dragged along. Could this material be gypsum powder or an insulation material?

Endimion (48 posts) Oct-12-02, 05:13 PM (ET) Reply to post #54 58. Maybe this fact will interest everyone, including you. About month ago, I was talking to a guy that gave me this stunning piece of knowledge. Ok, enough with poetry. Less 10 years ago, his father (working in the tower 1 or 2) took him on a "Tour la WTC". They were wandering around the floors, and they got into a construction area (I think he told me it was around 50th floor). Entering the floor, he noticed how fire-insulation was removed from the floor trusses. Now, here are my questions. 1)How the heck did they get permition to enter a construction area?!?! I say if >they< could enter it, then it really wouldn't be impossible to impregnate the whole ~100 floors with "firecrackers". 2)Why would workers remove all of the fireproofing in order to make some changes for new offices?! I won't answer this one, cause I already did above. P.S.: Here is a little IGNORANCE from a guy from another stupid forum. I quote: "the reason everything was turned to dust was 1.5 million tons crushing everything at 120 mph causing 2.9 richter earthquakes! the reason all the rubble was shipped out was to find human remains and begin on recontructing them. there is no conspiracy. studying the rubble, all engineers say the fireproofing was horribly burned away from the steel ties! and pancake effect works! more and more weight crushing each floor would create suffiecient force to cromple the twin towers." Can you actually believe how much crap is layed in ordinary citizens heads? WOW! 1.5 million tons. That's like 2 towers plus WTC4,5 or 6. 120 mph??? WWWHAT? That is 222.24 km/h! WEEEEE.... ALL engineers? Reconstructing pieces? How? COME ON, give me a break!..... There is so much crap around. And when you try to remove it, the crap responds violently! And, Lared, you can't say that explosive releasing of the YELLOW-ORANGE dust is normal. THINK! Oh, another thing. Think about what did you just said about core fireproofing. And remember what were you yelling before (core melting). Evil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE

Endimion (48 posts) Oct-12-02, 06:52 PM (ET) Reply to post #60 63. Well why don't you then walk into a constuction site and wander around some hollow skyscraper. I think the security had "holes". Fireproofing should be replaced immediately, not in the end of works. Safety first! Each tower is 500000 t, not 750000 t. What YELLOW-ORANGE dust? Just look at the photos Jeff put here. See that big piece? (pics are time delayed, so one can see how it erupts) Melted, softened, I heard tons of it. BS. Evil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-12-02, 04:49 PM (ET) Reply to post #48 56. Gypsy auto body The outer walls were 14" steel columns alternating with ~22" windows, so I doubt that there were little strips of drywall on each column. Someone here must have been is one of the offices - were the columns bare metal on the inside? But the problem that remains is that, even if there were bits (14" wide strips) of drywall on the inside of the columns, what would make it turn to fine powder that we see being released at high rates over long distances of fall? It's not enough to say that gypsum is easily puverized: how is it being pulverized in this actual situation? Are we to believe that air whipping around the edges of the columns is scouring it off as a fine dust? In objects falling from 10s of mph to maybe 150 mph (remember that they are not all falling from the top and have not reached the ground)? And look at the volume of dust- these are thick, opaque trails stretching hundreds of feet. Can air really make wallboard disintegrate so slowly and so uniformly, into huge quantities of fine dust? Only in LAR_LAR land! "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-12-02, 06:14 PM (ET) Reply to post #48 61. Trailing dusty glory Yes, there's no question *something* is being eroded off the outer walls. The continuous sheet of dust streaming away from the trailing edges of the pieces can be seen to actually "attach to" the trailing edge. This can only happen if the material streaming off originates from the section of wall. As 2much points out, this is all about fluid dynamics. A solid object moving through dust (or smoke or whatever simulation of the system you choose)will leave a path with *less* dust behind it and trailing vortices of the dust moving back into the cleared path. It cannot push (other than in a very narrow zone at the leading edge) or pull dust along in its path, nor can it carry large amounts of dust along and later dump them. To do justice to this fluid dynamic/terminal velocity question, we have to recognize several different regimes of behavior: 1) A solid object falling in a fluid, e.g. a chunk of steel falling in air. It will accelerate at G- (drag coefficient x V), but in fact will accelerate at almost G and not reach terminal velocity in 1300'. 2) Smoke or dust particles suspended in air. If these are fine enough they will have a low terminal velocity, and form a cloud that drifts slowly down at a speed that depends on particle size and density. 3) Thick suspensions of dense fine particles in high concentration (particles per unit volume). When dense enough such a suspension can become a turbidity current of pyroclastic flow. In this regime the "fluid" of suspended particles is dense enough to flow at high speed in the less-dense medium, achieving a terminal velocity much higher than for normal dust or smoke. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Endimion (48 posts) Oct-12-02, 06:45 PM (ET) Reply to post #61 62. You can bet it's a pyroclastic flow! I saw on one video (streetcollapse.mpeg) how the flow from 1st tower acts like liquid, and spills under the car like liquid He. Damn scary. Makes you want to scream and run. I doubt many pyroclastic matter would become out of the collapse without charges. (well, not all of the tower would fall down) It was like a thick, heavy, dense wave of almost water matter, that suffocated a lot of people. Remember St.Helen eruption? Evil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE

2muchbs (1189 posts) Oct-12-02, 07:50 PM (ET) Reply to post #61 64. Just think of the volume LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-02 AT 07:52 PM (ET) Of sheetrock required to create such a particulate trail. At the rate its bleeding off in the PICS above, you would need massive sections of sheetrock to fall only 50 feet while maintaining that dense smoke trail effect. And the result would not look anything like the PICS anyway. It's not jet fuel as it would have long been vaporized/burned at this point, and its not just about anything else I can think of. So how did it happen? The PICS of the debris falling, trailing such a dense matter are very hard to explain. But then again so are the energy input spikes directly before collapse, the basement molten metal, and the smoke jets way below collapsing floors, and the spire to dust deal, and the fireman telling of explosions well after plane impact, And Bush killing an investigation, Sulfur traces,etc. Can it get more obvious? I think not. Can Lared be more obvious, I think not. Bill

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-12-02, 11:01 PM (ET) Reply to post #64 69. Considering the volume The outer walls must have been a composite of drywall and insulation on the interior with the steel column sections and column covers on the outside. The steel columns would have had sprayed-on fire retardant material. The plume of debris could consist of all this stuff. Most of the steel in the debris pile seems devoid of fire retardant based on the pictures I've seen. In the Naudet brothers video, when they are running from the collapse of tower 1, the debris comes first in stone size chunks, then a hail of gravel size pieces, then sand-like grit, then a blizzard of darkness inducing fine powder and fluffy flakes that look and fly around like snow. It would seem that the fire retardant alone might supply enough volume since it would be at least a half inch or more. Plus it flakes off rather easily and would be consistent with the fluffy debris seen in the video. Thing is, if we speculate that the steel itself was being eroded somehow, then there would have to be partially eroded steel in the debris pile. But I can't see any such evidence in all the pictures nor have I found any reporting on this. Most of the steel looks clean with very little fire retardant remaining. The energy spikes are interesting, the molten metal needs to be confirmed, and other unexplained phenomena all need further study. Isn't it obvious why Bush is trying to kill the investigation of 9/11? He knows it could lead to revealing that he and his inner circle had rather specific information on what was coming and they did nothing about it, which will lead to the unavoidable conclusion that they allowed the attacks to happen.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-13-02, 00:28 AM (ET) Reply to post #69 70. partially eroded steel See http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5189&forum=DCForumID43&omm=21 from this thread. "A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness." There is some very strangely "eroded" steel found in the WTC-7 wreckage. Given that only ~100 pieces from the towers were saved it may be that no clear evidence of "metal softening" in the twin towers survived. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-13-02, 04:12 PM (ET) Reply to post #70 79. Eutectic reaction Yes, I had read that article before. It seems to talk about a possible reaction with steel where there were high temperatures involved and some other elements such as sulfur. http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html Most of the falling wall sections seen were not touched by the fire, so it would not seem that this phenomenon would apply in that case.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-13-02, 04:23 PM (ET) Reply to post #79 81. One minor point about eutectic mixtures The eutectic point represents the ratio of two or more substances that will have the lowest melting point for that particular combination of substances. This does not mean that it will form at a low temperature though. To dissolve sulfur in steel it must be heated to close to the melting point or the sulfur will not be able to diffuse into the metal. The presence of such mixtures indicates very high temperatures and high concentrations of sulfur - perhaps thousands of little match girls scattered through the buildings? "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

LARED (449 posts) Oct-13-02, 05:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #81 83. Hey Plaguepuppy To dissolve sulfur in steel it must be heated to close to the melting point or the sulfur will not be able to diffuse into the metal. The presence of such mixtures indicates very high temperatures and high concentrations of sulfur - Is positively unadulterated BS. Let me repeat that. Positively unadulterated BS. I work with materials on a regular basis that are subject to eutectic reactions and it don't work that way. Not even close.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-13-02, 10:59 PM (ET) Reply to post #83 90. Thanks you for that useful information Could you be a little less specific? "it don't work that way. Not even close." Perhaps you could share your great experience and knowledge with those of us who don't spend our days heating little piles of sulfur with a torch. Some numbers perhaps? "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

LARED (449 posts) Oct-14-02, 12:04 PM (ET) Reply to post #90 101. Sure There are basically three things a play in these types of reaction. Time, temp and contaminate. I see these sort of reactions/corrosions on a regular basis at work. We have a number of furnaces and incinerators that collectively operate anywhere from 1000 to 2500 deg f. The materials range from CS to nickel alloys. I am not an expert in this, but I have collaborated with metallurgists on a number of occasions and have first hand knowledge. I can only generalize the following and please keep in mind this phenomenon is hardly an exact science. In my experiance these reactions will occur somewhere above 1/2 the melting point. I have seen the results of the the CS/Sulphur reaction first hand, plus others. The level of contaminates can be as low a the PPM range to start this reaction. The time plays an important role as the reactions may or may not be energetic. I've seen failure that took years to progress and I've seen failures that took a few days. As I said there are alot of variable at play. Your suggestion that to dissolve sulfur in steel it must be heated to close to the melting point of the steel or the sulfur will not be able to diffuse into the metal is just plain false. The definition of a eutectic reactions is that the elements create a new melting point below the normal melting point.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-13-02, 10:11 AM (ET) Reply to post #69 73. I doubt very seriously that fire retardant was sprayed on the outer LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-02 AT 10:13 AM (ET) columns of the building. No fire in a building is going to get hot enough to affect their strength, period. Their load was vertical. The fire retardant was sprayed on the floor joists and supports and they would be the ones that would be most affected from heat due to the horizontal(gravity)loads.

ewing2001 (3251 posts) Oct-13-02, 03:05 PM (ET) Reply to post #73 78. Painful Questions LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-02 AT 03:08 PM (ET) I just got the booklet "painfulquestions" from Eric Hufschmidt http://www.erichufschmid.net// http://www.erichufschmid.net/PainfulQuestions.html It's THE No.1 book about all Sep11th collapses with many pictures. Not necessarily all new facts for other specialists like 2muchBS and plaguepuppy, but a MUST to read and have for everyone who support that B7, WTC 1/2 and Pentagon was destroyed with controlled demolition. I was very impressed and found some very good new details for me. It's an excellent analysis with great (originals with high resolution!) images, maps, drawings and figures. I told Eric to meet 2muchBS, plaguepuppy and all the other specialists here. Maybe he has time to join in. Great book! GROUND ZERO Forum NYC http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001 http://www.ourdna.org/ http://www.lebensaspekte.de/ 911Skeptics worldwide unite! Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Connecticut, Ohio, Portland etc... Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later! http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm http://www.lihop.net/ Martin Luther King III, Nina Hagen, Spooky, Patti Smith, Ralph Nader got our 911-files! How Cynthia McKinney got our 911-files + Bush-Booker-Video (SGTV) http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=9053&forum=DCForumID60 Support the 911-Truth Commission: http://www.911nationalnetwork.org/petition/ Ed Asner, Harry Belafonte, Howard Zinn etc... http://www.petitiononline.com/11601TFS/petition.html http://www.ctnow.com/features/lifestyle/hc-profile0929.artsep29,0,5020067.story?coll=hc%2Dheadlines%2Dlife Support the No.1 911-Bookmark-List: http://globalfreepress.com/ Support the No.1 911-Timeline Center: http://cooperativeresearch.org/completetimeline/ How the 911-Lie started: Bush at Booker Elementary http://ewing2001.kulturserver-berlin.de/Bush_Booker_SGTV.mov http://burningbush.myip.org/DUTV-BUSHWTC.zip http://burningbush.myip.org/DUTV-BUSHWTC.small.mov Please donate for GZ Forum NYC. Every $10 counts. (telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution, hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...) Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html 911Skeptics in the media: http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.conspiracy.0912w NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-13-02, 04:30 PM (ET) Reply to post #78 82. Yes, an outstanding effort! Hufschmid manages to find a lot of outstanding pictures and other graphics. I especially like the contour elevation map of the site after the collapse that shows levels below ground level in the middle of several of the structures. WTC-6 has two large hemispherical craters in the middle, both with bottoms below ground level. Pretty good for a spontaneous collapse - a naieve observer might think is showed the effects of two huge-ass explosions. But it's probably just another example of "American Dementia" (the especially virulent NYC version) as it applies to inanimate objects. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-13-02, 06:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #84 86. Truffles Les Robertson, the Trade Center’s structural engineer, spoke last week at a conference on tall buildings in Frankfurt, Germany. He was asked during a question-and-answer session what he had done to protect the twin towers from terrorist attacks, according to Joseph Burns, a principal at the Chicago firm of Thornton-Thomasetti Engineers. Burns, who was present, said that Robertson said of the center, “I designed it for a 707 to smash into it.” http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-010911kamin-towers.story The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse. Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted. It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present. This is not true. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html 8.2.8.1 Observations and Findings a. The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation. b. Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000 °C (1,800 °F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel. c. The sulfidation attack of steel grain boundaries accelerated the corrosion and erosion of the steel. d. The high concentration of sulfides in the grain boundaries of the corroded regions of the steel occurred due to copper diffusing from the high-strength low-alloy (HSLA) steel combining with iron and sulfur, making both discrete and continuous sulfides in the steel grain boundaries. 8.2.8.2 Recommendations The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 constitute an unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this was the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires. http://www.nc4.us/nc4/articles/wtc_findings.htm All seven WTC buildings, the Bankers Trust building, and other buildings that sustained major impact and/or fire damage from the attacks on the WTC towers are discussed in detail in this report. Information is presented about building performance documented during this study, as well as findings and recommendations for each building, as appropriate. http://www.nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/WTC_ch1.htm Environmental Studies of the World Trade Center area after the September 11, 2001 attack. http://geology.cr.usgs.gov/pub/open-file-reports/ofr-01-0429/index.html#Contents Thermal imaging of the infamous hot spots http://geology.cr.usgs.gov/pub/open-file-reports/ofr-01- 0429/thermal.r09.html Soothing, cooling http://www.pyrocool.org/ground_zero.htm http://www.pyrocool.org/ground_zero.htm Melted coins at the Smithsonian http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/search.asp?search=1&keywords=coins&location= Closeup of some steel pieces http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html#authors Jon Magnusson estimates that he spent about one-quarter of his time in the past year studying, discussing or thinking about the World Trade Center. The Seattle-based engineering firm he chairs, Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire, helped design the World Trade Center almost four decades ago. <snip> Magnusson has come to a simple conclusion about the ability of designers to produce a structure that could have survived a catastrophe like Sept. 11. "We can out-build earthquakes. We can out-build windstorms. But we can't out-build military attacks. There are certain things we can't design for," he said. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134534024_skilling12m.html http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/wtc.php

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-13-02, 10:18 PM (ET) Reply to post #86 88. Powdered concrete What caused the World Trade Centers to create so much powdered concrete? http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/tradecencrimes/PowderedConcrete.html alternate http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/tradecencrimes/page368.html Geeman's Headquarters http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/tradecencrimes/main.html

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-14-02, 04:10 AM (ET) Reply to post #88 93. Powdered concrete & powdering iron A fantastic picture from your first Link: Notice the large piece of outer wall on the right, falling just ahead of the dust cloud. Notice how thick the dust cloud is trailing behind it, and how attenuated the piece itself is starting to look. The dust cloud is very dense - remember this was during the pyroclastic flow phase - and was falling almost as fast as the piece of metal. Rememember that the whole shebang, chunks and dust alike, fell in about free-fall time (~11 sec.), so the dust did not drift down in a leisurely cloud. In fact the dust is so dense that it retains some of the shape of the object that it is trailing from, which is what creates the impression of vertical columns in the first picture of this thread. Only fine powdered metal could create a dense enough slurry with air to be able to flow as a pyroclastic cloud. These things do not occur easily - in nature only from volcanic explosions and underwater landslides. They require rapid production of dense but finely powdered material and rapid mixing with air, conditions not easily met in the natural world. Particles of a lighter material like gypsum would be too light to fall in a pyroclastic flow but would behave more like smoke, and as 2muchbs has pointed out there is nowhere near enough gypsum on the outer columns to account for the volume and density of dust that flows off of them. His analogy is a good one: the bigger pieces look like sugar cubes dissolving in water with grains trailing behind, given a little scaling of Reynolds numbers. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-14-02, 11:25 AM (ET) Reply to post #93 97. Picture that goes with above Guess AngelFire doesn't allow hot-linking. Here's another copy of the picture: "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-14-02, 11:43 AM (ET) Reply to post #97 99. That shows that strange glow also Funny the glow would look like it's coming from ground level there. I would think it would be brighter towards the top of the building and get dimmer as you go towards the ground, but it seems to do the exact opposite.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-15-02, 09:23 AM (ET) Reply to post #99 108. strange glow LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-02 AT 09:32 AM (ET) That's the residual glow from the south tower collapse. Here's a video clip that shows the site of WTC-2 still glowing long after the collapse: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/bright_afterglow_of_south_tower_collapse_.avi (1.1MB) This links to a longer clip (23MB)that shows the persistent glow from WTC-2 and also the WTC-1 collapse from the north with visible glow behind it at the start: http://ontario.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7338&group=webcast Just as the north tower debris cloud hits the ground the glow gets dramatically brighter. It seems too bright to be real, but many videos and stills show the same thing, and you can see the auto-exposure on the camera stop down to compensate. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-14-02, 10:30 AM (ET) Reply to post #88 95. Good photo of the floor joist connection points as well This photo shows the attachment points where the joist attached to the outer columns. The bottom column has both attached, the column sitting on the top plainly shows where the attachment broke off at the welds. You can plainly see the remains of a broken weld on the top column. It looks like an extremely shitty welding job to me. On the bottom it looks like the weld is not only on the edges of the column, but also a fill weld is put in between the attach point and the recessed portion of the column. If it didnt have that the only places the attach points were welded to the column would be about 2 inches on each side of the bracket, leaving a big space in the center with no welding at all. On the bottom bracket, you can see the center part is filled with weld, no light is coming in between the attachment bracket and column. Look at the top column broken weld again, in the recessed area of the column, there is plainly no weld there, broken or otherwise. Seeing this causes me to ask a couple of questions. The first one that jumps out at me is you can see by comparing the column to the 2X4 it sits on that the outer columns we made of 2" thick steel and in my estimation that attachment is made of 1/2" thick steel at the most. Why? Those attachment are carrying a tremendous amount of weight, why are they so flimsy compared to the outer columns? If you look at the remaining attach points on the bottom column, they are welded to the column, but there is no indication of a broken weld where the joist fits into the attachments. Where they just set in place? I had seen or read that the joists were BOLTED into place in the attachments, but I see no evidence of bolt holes. If there had been bolt holes they would be evident, even if they had pulled out you would see deformation and a partial hole left in the attachment point. It looks like a very poor design to me. Why have such massive columns and joists and have such wimpy little attachments to hold them all together? Also, when people talk about these attachments failing and that causes the floors to fall, the concrete wasnt sitting directly on top of the joists. A corrugated steel pan was laid over the joists and then the concrete poured on top of that. It seems like a big number of joists would have to fail all at the same time to allow the pan with concrete on top to fall down to the floor below.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-14-02, 11:46 AM (ET) Reply to post #95 100. Guess that is an oxy/acetalene torch laying on the column The attach point might have been torched off, but there still would be some evidence of the fill weld in the recessed area of the column, so it was never welded on that particular attachment point.

LARED (449 posts) Oct-14-02, 12:09 PM (ET) Reply to post #95 102. Are you sure those are outer columns? Those columns look to be perhaps 2 to 3 feet by maybe 3 to 5 feet. As I recall the outer column were much smaller.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-15-02, 09:27 AM (ET) Reply to post #102 109. Nope, those are from the core And I don't think those things you see are really the hanger brackets for the floor trusses. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-15-02, 10:36 AM (ET) Reply to post #109 111. It sure matched the diagrams I have seen for the columns and the attachments for the trusses. Inside or out wouldn't make any difference, they still are too wimpy to do the job safely. The trusses are 80 cm tall, or approx 30" and the brackets look like they would be about that distance apart

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-15-02, 07:10 AM (ET) 105. I got one more thing that boggles me I know this is all an exercise in futility, all we're doing here is preaching to the choir, but I see another thing in alot of WTC photos that seems really strange to me, I can't see any reason for what's happening. In many of the shots of WTC falling, the vertical outer columns of the building are no longer running straight up and down, but seem to be running diagonally across the face of the building. In photos that show more than 1 side of the building, that same effect is showing on all the visible sides. It gives the impression that the whole building is being twisted in a counter clockwise direction. Just a quick look shows 2 photos on this thread that show the phenomenon plainly, here is one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5189&forum=DCForumID43&omm=11 and another:http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5189&forum=DCForumID43&omm=97 Anyone(except you-know-who) have any reasonable explaination of the mechanics of what is going on here?

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-15-02, 09:07 AM (ET) Reply to post #105 106. ...the mechanics of what is going on here? Ah, this one at least has a simple explanation. The diagonal stripes you are seeing are a Moiré pattern, something you get when you superimpose two grid-like patterns. You see them in silk for example, where they are swirly. Here because it is a rectangular grid the pattern is of diagonal stripes. In these two pictures I suspect the interaction is between the fine vertical lines and the grain of the pixels. But in any case it would be physically impossible to distort the columns into perfectly straight orientation. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-15-02, 10:33 AM (ET) Reply to post #106 110. I have no claims of knowing anything about digital imaging so to clarify for myself, you're saying these apparent diagonal lines would probably not show up in a hi-resolution photograph? I was just curious, regular pics of the towers I had seen hadn't shown anything like that, but it seems like most of the pics from the destruction showed them. I thought maybe because they way they were collapsing was putting some kind of stress to make them appear that way.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-15-02, 10:52 AM (ET) Reply to post #110 112. Right, it's an artifact ...caused by two superimposed grids, one of them being the building's columns and the other the rectangular array of pixels in the image. With an analog (film) camera you wouldn't see the diagonal stripes, unless you happened to be shooting through a window screen. Stress lines in a structure like this wouldn't be so straight and parallel, even if you could see them. And besides, once the building has started to collapse the lower part is actually under less stress - less building up there to support! "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-15-02, 11:52 PM (ET) Reply to post #112 114. As Schultz would say I know nothingk! I am just hazarding a guess. Shoot it down if it doesn't make scientific sense. Suppose this collapse was triggered by electromagnetic energy. Then the biggest currently available reservoir would be the earth itself. See Tesla for more info. Then, this being the case, might it not be the Coriolis effect manifesting itself? http://www.windpower.dk/tour/wres/coriolis.htm Just asking. I missed the covert tech seminar and they won't let me do a make up class.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-16-02, 12:13 PM (ET) Reply to post #114 116. One of the photos showing those lines IS Hi-Res LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-02 AT 01:05 PM (ET) LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-02 AT 12:50 PM (ET) I blew it up 4 times larger and it still looks pretty clear. From what experience I do have with digital (photo and paint shop) if a picture is low res and blown up 4 times larger the pixalization is so bad you can't make out anything. This didnt happen with this pic: Blow it up 4 times in photoshop and its still pretty clear, I would think that would mean its high resolution. I tried to upload it to my wespace and provide a link here to view it at that size, but my web space won't allow a file of that size to be uploaded for some reason. I noticed that at that increased size, the CCW diagonal lines disappeared and instead you could see CW diagonal lines running across it instead. These lines looked like artifacts or the Moire effect you noted. It may or may not be anything, like I said, I'm no expert, but it is worthwhile doing this because when it is blown up you can still see alot of detail in the face of the building, it's like looking at it through binoculars. Maybe something else that actually is not an artifact will jump out at you. One thing I noticed is the buidling seems to be shedding bits of the outer wall well below the collapse point, which, with my admittedly small knowledge of engineering, I don't think should be happening. Edit: adding this section of the blown up picture, its location is just below the point of collapse. There is a very bright light right in the center of it, it is much clearer if you look at it in photoshop, when I saved it to upload here it lost some of it's definition. I have marked the photo above to show what area we are looking at in the picture. What in the heck could this thing be? Any ideas?

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-18-02, 05:46 AM (ET) Reply to post #118 119. Covert Tech The bastards wouldn't let me take homework home for some reason. That was a test, you were supposed to figure out a way to sneak it home and back. No wonder you washed out! If you look at your blow-up of the "bright spot" you can see that the columns in the outer wall are still straight up and down. The fact that the diagonal stripes changed direction as you changed the resolution is also a hint that they are not a real part of the image. Notice how the long axis of the building isn't perfectly parallel to the long axis of the picture. This causes an interferance pattern between the rectangular array of pixels and the straight lines of the facade, and the diagonal stripes *are* the interferance pattern. At least that's what my notes for interferance 101 say. Here's an interesting series of pictures of the WTC-1 collapse. You can see the "spire" emerging on the right. It's very strange that it does not collapse or at least topple in the initial collapse. Notice how there are two pillars or fountains of dust, one centered on the spire, the other seemingly centered on the other side of the building, with a gap between them. WTF??? This wasn't in my notes... "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-18-02, 11:52 AM (ET) Reply to post #119 120. Another nice pyroclastic blowout Notice all the the chopped off pieces of outer columns ahead of the dust cloud on the right, almost a wall of broken steel flying out at the leading edge of the cloud. Also notice the odd flow pattern on the top left, something quite different from the simpler "waterfall" of debris on the left. In other pictures that odd flow pattern is also the point where the bright glow seems to focus, and there is a hint of that here. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-18-02, 02:24 PM (ET) Reply to post #119 121. Any ideas what the "bright spot" is? LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-02 AT 02:26 PM (ET) I copied that pic off the thread here and then enlarged it in photoshop, so there is no manipulation done to the picture as far as I know. That is too regular shaped to just be random debris in the cloud. That actual portion of the building is still standing, on that same level a honey comb or wagon wheel shaped object with a bright light right at the center of it. I guess what I'm getting at; could this picture have been snapped at the exact second a demolition charge went off?

EricHufschmid (8 posts) Oct-23-02, 02:02 AM (ET) Reply to post #121 150. These are long distance photos If the specs were the flash of explosives, they would appear in a definite pattern, namely, along the base of the puffs of dust. And then that specks would disappear as the puffs of dust grew larger. Also, other photographs would show them in the same locations. Keep in mind that the towers are a thousand feet tall, and some of the photographers are thousands of feet away. Some of the photographers were in New Jersey or Brooklyn. The photos from New Jersey are especially full of round specks. If you have "Painful Questions", look it page 32 and you can see several black specs, while on page 40 there are some light-colored, and larger, specs. These specs can be dismissed as irrelevant because they appear in a random and meaningless pattern, and different photographs show them in different meaningless locations.

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-18-02, 08:19 PM (ET) Reply to post #107 122. That damn Osama Cleared and certified for flight on numerous US Air Force, US Navy, and international aircraft http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-109.htm http://www.cnduk.org/briefing/thermo.htm

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-19-02, 01:26 AM (ET) Reply to post #122 125. Osama yo momma Dammy sammy, I'm not sure I see the connection here - BLUs clues? I think I was sick that day in cryptic utterance school... But I'm pretty sure no BLUs were used in the 9/11 magic show. Here's another strange picture: notice how the area on the upper left has gotten much brighter. The cloud of debris on the right has flown out even further, and two larger pieces can be seen in the lead, trailing the familiar thick dust. This stuff is a good 3 building widths (~600') away from the tower and still quite high in the air, so it must have left the building in a big hurry. Also notice how the "axis" of the collapse, as defined by the vertical plume at the top, is actually off-center with the building. Remember that only one tower remains at this point, WTC-1, a corner of which faces us just right of WTC-7. By the way, these pictures are from Here Is New York, a remarkable physical and online gallery of photos relating to 9/11, proceeds from which benefit the Children's Aid Society of New York. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

emmaline (111 posts) Oct-19-02, 12:41 PM (ET) 126. Another "dirty little secret" regarding 911.....is there more to be http://www.spacedaily.com/news/nuclear-blackmarket-02c.html looked into and taken apart piece by piece? Investigations should be another priority of this country.....

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-19-02, 03:04 PM (ET) Reply to post #126 127. So many secrets One more wafer-thin slice of pyroclastic mush: Aint it peculiar how every time you see a largish chunk of outer wall falling (or being blown out sideways) it is trailing the same dense, uniform dust cloud? And all those neatly chopped-off one story pieces of the outer box columns (that were fabricated in 3 story lengths), is that really what you would expect of a structure crumbling under its own weight? What on earth could not only cut them cleanly in thirds, but also throw them out sideways at high speed? "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-19-02, 05:58 PM (ET) Reply to post #127 128. I'd like to bring up that pic I put up again. I really don't think that is just random debris falling down the side of the building there, the rest of the crap has no definition at all. If the WTC had exhaust fans in the side of it or something that might be it, but I havent been able to find any in any pics I've looked at the trade center. I would think if the photographer happened to snap the picture right at the instant a bomb went off it might look something very much like this.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-20-02, 03:49 PM (ET) Reply to post #128 133. Bright spots There are quite a few spots like the one you single out, differing a little in brightness but not really qualitatively different in appearance. Small lighter color spots are surrounded with a dark ring that seems to get thicker as the spot gets brighter. If you go back to the original picture you see that these spots are not that bright compared to other objects in the frame, but are situated in front of a dark background. My guess is that they are small pieces of debris far enough in front of the building to be out of the shadow of the debris cloud. I think the dark penumbra is a contrast artifact (probably introduced at the level of the original camera) created by having a small bright object against a much darker background. Remember, no image sensor is perfect. As to explosives, yes I think they were used, but small cutting charges on the backs of columns would not make a bright flash. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-22-02, 01:45 AM (ET) Reply to post #137 138. Bright skies over NYC LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-02 AT 02:38 AM (ET) There really is something important to be understood about the bright glow associated with the twin tower collapses. Here's a wider view in black-and-white of the beginning of the WTC-1 collapse. Notice how bright the entire sky looks on the left and how buildings in the distance are partly obscured by a bright haze. More on Bright Skies at http://www.cheniere.org/misc/brightskies1.htm "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

EricHufschmid (8 posts) Oct-22-02, 03:21 AM (ET) Reply to post #137 139. Don't pay them to help me commit suicide >What bothers me most about U.S.-funded infiltrators is that I have to buy them lunches, plane tickets, cool sunglasses like Mr. Smith ... That is an interesting way to describe it! I just hope you don't also pay them to help me commit suicide in a strange manner, like the suicide of that black policeman in Oklahoma City who saw something he shouldn't have seen in the building that Tim McVeigh supposedly blew up. (Did you hear about that policeman?) >I suggest you .PDF it and sell it from clickbank.com. I paid AP, Reuters, etc, for the rights to print a book, not to publish on-line. I don't mind spending even more money for on-line rights, but I have no faith that the Internet crowd will buy enough copies to cover the thousands in fees I would pay. Rather, they will just pass it around. Besides, there are several hundred megabytes of photos and graphics, and while they can be compressed, even compressed there is too much to make it practical. I would be paying a lot of bandwidth fees just to let people download it. Worse of all, an online version defeats the purpose of having high quality photos. I personally find the paper version much more plesant to read. >As for Mossad, I have no clue what to do. Have you seen the latest report about this old incident in which the Mossad got away with transporting suspicious chemicals: http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_14_02/Jetliner_Crash_/jetliner_crash_.html The Mossad is so successful that they may control the USA within a decade or two. When have they ever gotten in trouble for anything? Our CIA and FBI, by comparison, are so pathetic that I can't figure out if they are merely incompetent, or if they have been infiltrated by other nations who are trying to destroy America. Eric

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-22-02, 04:14 PM (ET) Reply to post #139 141. The things our money pays for After all that practice subverting other peoples governments and backing thugs to do our bidding, it has always seemed inevitable to me that those birds would come home to roost. Everything being done to the American people is right out of the CIA's psy-war playbook and it's working beautifully so far. But then the media here are more tightly controlled than anywhere else in the "free" world. Once the information flow is tightly channeled it becomes very difficult for the public to grasp what is being done. The eternal now of the TV culture wipes out all historical perspective and context, and replaces it with deadening sentimentality and the preoccupations of the moment - snipers, two-headed babies, whatever gets people worked up. The art of the banal saga that began with the OJ case is now the constant mode of the news channels, drowning viewers in contextless details of the latest pseudo-crisis, the non-story story of people without a clue waiting for something to happen. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

IrateAutodidact (14 posts) Oct-22-02, 11:16 PM (ET) Reply to post #139 143. Gawd, don't say that ... No, I didn't hear about the cop. What was the deal? It's a given that there are files on anyone who has said Word One regarding the 11th. I hope you will consider the possibility that people 'round here are seriously nuts and do something about it. Why not get together with your new colleagues and get a plan? You can think of something! I guess you paid the news bureaus for rights to the photos? Write a text only book for ten or twenty books and try Clickbank.com. Just split the money with each seller using the Associates' Program. What's to lose?

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-23-02, 00:48 AM (ET) Reply to post #144 145. We are getting off topic Reports from the scene were horrific after two jet liners struck the twin towers, which subsequently collapsed from the damage and enveloped most of lower Manhattan in dust and soot. Michael Englund, an economist for Standard & Poor's, was attending a conference in one of the towers in the first floor convention hall and reported "incredible scenes" upon his escape prior to the building collapse. Mike reported witnessing a sewer pipe "fuse" with the metal of a car nearby as he fled. http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/sep2001/pi20010911_4982.htm ConFUSING, isn't it.... Volunteers are being turned away from the site as there are now enough workers for the space. But even the Mafia has joined the rescue effort. According to the Daily News, Carmine Agnello, jailed son-in-law of Mafia chief John Gotti, has offered his $6m shredding machine, which can chew up steel beams. Agnello, who is serving a nine-year sentence for racketeering involving extortion and arson, is the owner of the New York Shredding company one of the city's big scrap dealers. A letter from his attorney said that Agnello "felt the pain" and wanted to help. http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554891,00.html The vaults below the complex that was the World Trade Center were a vast and secret place. Not only did they hold some of the world's largest gold depositories, but they were home to stashes belonging to the CIA and secret service. Seventy feet below ground is an array of goods that includes bricks of cocaine, fake taxi cabs used for covert operations, bomb-proof state cars and security files meant for the eyes of the CIA only - nice booty for potential looters. http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,585391,00.html Removing the debris has also been controversial. The police said that some scrap metal has been diverted to mob-controlled businesses rather than the dump where investigators are examining rubble for clues and human remains. http://www.rense.com/general17/eyewitnessreportspersist.htm Deep inside Ground Zero you realize that all concrete, all masonry vaporised to nothing leaving mangled ironwork in its wake. Walking through it is like tracking through bramble. http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,593699,00.html Some of the buildings being excavated had clocks that had stopped at the moment of impact; surrounding bars and restaurants had bottles of wine and glasses still on the table. http://society.guardian.co.uk/disasterresponse/story/0,1321,555012,00.html The bullion was not the only valuable hoard buried beneath the twin towers. There were also caches of drugs seized by federal agents, boxes of FBI evidence - and thousands of Godiva chocolates. http://www.light1998.com/wtc/Plot.htm What, I ask you, kills thousands, stops clocks, fuses metal, vaporizes aircraft, turns steel skyscrapers into powder and yet somehow does not melt chocolate?

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-23-02, 01:35 AM (ET) Reply to post #145 147. Onward into the fog What, I ask you, kills thousands, stops clocks, fuses metal, vaporizes aircraft, turns steel skyscrapers into powder and yet somehow does not melt chocolate? A death ray with a sweet tooth? The car fused to a sewer pipe sounds like something out of the Philadelphia Experiment - remember the guys embedded in bulkheads? This is definitely not in the spectrum of phenomena associated with gravitational collapses. One other comment about those pictures of the start of the collapses, and that funny assymetrical pattern of the dust and smoke. The glow is off to one side and above the building at the start of the collapse (this is WTC-1, but similar things are seen in WTC-2), and there is a gap in the dust cloud on this side. The cascade of debris is larger on the opposite side and projects significantly further from the building. In the videos the dust/debris slurry below the gap on the left does not simply shoot out away from the building, but starts to flow back downward and to the right toward the center of the collapse. It is a subtle feature but there is a definite "backflow" of the debris cloud that seems to pull it back toward the midline of the building. This can't be explained in terms of a negative pressure created "in the wake of" the collapse - this is a very dense slurry, and we cannot have a strong negative pressure in the same place that a strong positive pressure has just blown out the debris from the building. There can't be a strong positive and negative pressure in the same place at the same time, or immediately adjecent, it's just not physically possible. Only some kind of outside force acting on the debris cloud could create this kind of flow. Here is a 1.3MB mpeg of the WTC-2 collapse viewed from the north that shows a similar flow pattern: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/close_demolitionfnj292.avi We see only the left (east) half of the building as it collapses. At first debris is being thrown out violently to the left, but as the debris cloud settles the right edge begins to "tuck under" and seemingly flows back down and to the right. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

EricHufschmid (8 posts) Oct-23-02, 01:43 AM (ET) Reply to post #145 149. They may have attempted to steal gold on the 10th. Some of those articles you have a link to suggest someone tried to break into the gold vaults, and they imply that it occurred after September 11th. However, since the attack was planned in advance, the attempt to break into the vaults may have been done just prior to September 11th. But perhaps they were unsuccessful because they tried to break into the vaults on the night of Sept 10th, and the vaults proved to be impossible to open with just a few hours. Take a look get the thermal maps of that area, and note also that firemen were spraying foam and water on lots of the rubble. I find it difficult to imagine a few people working their way down through the hot, smoking rubble to get at the vaults. Especially when the crews were working 24 hours a day. Even if they came in from the subways, there would be a lot of smoke and heat to deal with.

EricHufschmid (8 posts) Oct-23-02, 01:23 AM (ET) Reply to post #143 146. Cops that have trouble committing suicide The cop was Oklahoma City Police Officer Terrance Yeakey. Here is a quote from an Associated Press article: "He had apparently tried to slit his wrists, then shot himself to death, just three days before he was to have received the department's medal of valor." http://63.147.65.175/bomb/his26.htm Apparently he thought to himself, "Dang, cutting my wrists hurts like hell. Hey! Why not use my gun?" Have you heard of such a suicide? Other reports claim he had cut its all over his body, that his face shows signs of being beaten, and that he apparently was dragged through the dirt and grass. Here are two reports that don't believe it was suicide: http://www.intellex.com/~rigs/page1/okc/yeak.htm http://thewinds.arcsnet.net/arc_features/government/okc10-97.html >I guess you paid the news bureaus for rights to the photos? Yes. I'm not going to give our government any reason to arrest me. Of course, they don't need a reason to arrest or kill me, but I certainly don't want to give them any assistance. >Write a text only book... I'm not sure the book would be of any value without the pictures and graphics.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-23-02, 01:40 AM (ET) Reply to post #146 148. Books - paper has great bandwidth The pictures are very compelling, and there's just no way you could capture the detail in a reasonably-sized online document. Your graphics are also very valuable and support the text in important ways. Sometimes plain old paper is still the best. And you certainly deserve compensation for your efforts - e-books are all too easy to pirate or "share around." "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café